25.06.10 WKID AI Exchange # 13
The WKID AI Exchange meets weekly on Tuesdays & Thursdays.
* Tue 11 am New York Time - no meeting on 6/17
* Thu 5 pm New York Time
If you'd like to participate, email systemswiki@gmail.com, and we'll send you the connect info.
Recall and Graph Use
Recall is being used on a daily basis and is found to be useful and interesting, with some issues encountered when trying to get text out of online PDF files 01:27
The graph in the PKM community is used for clustering ideas and showing connections between them, but there is no connection between the taxonomy and the graph 05:27
Orchestration Technologies and AI Agents
Randall joins the conversation and mentions that he has been looking into orchestration technologies, such as Model Context Protocol (MCP) and N8N, to coordinate a group of generative models 15:24
Artificial intelligent agents run processes in loops, generating plans and actions, and can create their own understanding through unsupervised learning, where they learn structure from unstructured or unlabeled data 19:04.
Alignment Process and Normativity
The alignment process involves aligning the labeling of AI-generated concepts to the norms of a human population, which can be useful in communicating across disciplines and translating between different fields 21:46.
Researchers like Yuruslav Peragrin and Carl Fristen are working on concepts related to normativity and active inference, which can be applied to artificial intelligence and understanding human behavior 26:51.
Systems Engineering and System Science
Systems engineering is distinct from system science, with the former being a reductive activity that creates products and the latter being an investigative activity that promotes understanding 32:15.
Philosophy of Science and Complexity
The philosophy of science is also relevant, with concepts like postnormal science and hyper pragmatism being discussed in the context of communicating complex scientific ideas to the public 33:42.
There's a struggle with the theme of complexity in systems engineering, and it's been a topic of discussion in the last couple of years, with some tension between different working groups, including natural systems and social systems 37:23.
International Society for System Sciences
The International Society for System Sciences has a connection with the natural systems working group, and there's an effort to work on the Seabok section, which covers system sciences, with an invitation for others to contribute 38:29.
The INCOSE organization terminated its relationship with the International Society for System Sciences, possibly due to a new executive director who is not a systems engineer, leading to changes in the organization 39:36.
There's a discussion about the Systems Engineering Professionals Discord group, which has a mix of INCOSE and non-INCOSE members, and is more open to recognizing other systems disciplines, but struggles with figuring out what to do with them 42:29.
Natural Systems and Engineering
The natural systems group is considered an outlier in the field of engineering, and there's a debate about whether natural systems can be engineered, with some arguing that they can be impacted but not engineered 51:55.
The concept of engineering has a specific meaning, but it can be interpreted differently depending on the context and the sources consulted, such as engineering textbooks 52:19.
Broader Implications of Engineering
The discussion touches on the idea that engineers should consider the broader implications of their work, including the social and environmental impacts, and that this might require a shift in the way engineering is taught and practiced 53:36.
The conversation also mentions the history of systems thinking and the divergence between biological and engineering aspects of systems, with a notable example being the work of Hines Forester and the closure of the biological systems laboratory at the University of Illinois 59:48.
Social Systems and Engineering
The question is raised whether social systems can or should be engineered, and if so, whether it's being done well or badly, and if social systems would even accept being engineered 01:04:37.
Systems Thinking Re-evaluation
Systems thinking has failed due to a lack of awareness of the context it was intended to support, and has been largely rejected for the last 90 years since Bertilanthy 01:06:36
The job of systems thinking happens in a context of power, including economic and social factors, and the current tools used to address these issues have been relatively insufficient 01:07:14
There is a need to re-evaluate the approach to systems thinking, and a conference is upcoming, with meetings scheduled for this Thursday and next Thursday, and Randall and Bruce are discussing potential collaboration and sharing of information
Chat Text
11:26:23 From Gene Bellinger : Absolute Zero Model:
11:32:35 From Gene Bellinger : Normative Species: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CKFLF2L1
11:45:58 From Bruce Lerner : https://discord.gg/DxjeCsNC
11:46:10 From Bruce Lerner : That's the discord group.
11:49:52 From Bruce Lerner : Bruce Lerner bruce@brucelerner.com https://www.linkedin.com/in/bruceplerner/